Episode 68 - Celeste & Danielle: Creating a healthy, motivated and passionate life, Part 1

Transcript

Announcer: This is part one of a two part program. This program is brought to you by Personal Life Media.com. This program is intended for mature audiences only.

Chip August: Welcome to Sex, Love and Intimacy. I’m your host, Chip August and today on the show, I have two of my favorite people that I’ve never met before, so Celeste and Danielle they are sexologists, sex teachers, they have a website, they have classes, they have workshops, and they’re here to talk about sex. We’re going to talk about what makes a good lover and we are going to talk about orgasm and we’re going to talk about couples and singles and all kinds of stuff about sex. Just a little bit of background, Danielle is Doctor Danielle Harel. She’s a clinical psychologist, a pleasure activist; I love that term, and a professor at the institute for advanced study of human sexuality. She has devoted the last fourteen years to counseling and empowering couples, women, men and groups. She graduated with a P.H.D. and a doctor of human sexuality degree from the institute for the advanced study of human sexuality in San Francisco. Danielle has a graduate degree in clinical social work and a bachelor’s degree in psychology and educational counseling. Her partner here today, Celeste Herschman has made a lifelong study of sexuality, intimacy and relationships, both inside and outside of the classroom. She is currently an assistant professor at the institute for advanced study of human sexuality where she teaches the sexological bodywork certificate training. She received an M.A. in human sexuality studies from San Francisco State, where she worked as a researcher at the center for research on gender and sexuality.

Danielle Harel: People are terrified from the possibility that bringing up this erotic energy means that you have to have sex with everyone, flirt with everyone in the street, but that’s actually not what we mean. We mean getting in touch with your own desire. It’s yours. It’s not necessarily about anyone else; it’s really about feeling your desire in your body. Embracing it and being with it. That’s where the joy is. That’s where the power is.

Celeste Herschman: When you really accept that power and you embrace it in your body, then you have mastery over it and you can use it the ways you want to. You can bring in flirtation if that’s appropriate or you can just bring in that sense of confidence and power if that’s what called for in the moment.

Danielle Harel: So women have an amazing capacity to have different kinds of orgasms, from clitoral orgasms to g-spot orgasms, from cervical orgasms to uterine orgasms. From anal to nipple, to imaginary orgasms, so women have a huge capacity to have orgasms. Women also are very emotional and that’s something that’s not so acceptable in our culture. We’re supposed to be very rational and having a woman in bed like screaming and moaning and groaning and experiencing different kinds of orgasms is an amazing possibility to have a window into women’s emotional states and who women are and how also for guys to have an opportunity to connect with these parts of themselves that have less permission to be in touch with.

Celeste Herschman: Everything that we teach is embodied. I mean I guess you could say that we teach embodied seduction. This is something that comes from deep inside. It’s not something that you fake. It’s not a bunch of lines that you memorize. It’s not pretending to stand up with your shoulders straight and you know put women down and say all the right things to try to get them to have sex with you. Nobody feels good in those situations and I think the long term negative ramifications are disembodiment, erectile dysfunction, lack of orgasm, not being able to feel your experience. You might be successful quote unquote a couple of times and get somebody to sleep with you, but you won’t learn that what comes from inside of you is really what’s important.

Chip August: Welcome to the show Danielle and Celeste.

Danielle Harel: Thank you.

Celeste Herschman: Thank you.

Chip August: So, I want to talk about sex, but first I kind of want to know why did you guys become sexologists? I assume each of you have your own story. How do a couple of nice girls like you wind up being sex counselors, sex teachers, sex therapists, sexologists, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

Celeste Herschman: Oh, it’s so nice to be called a nice girl. I also like to be called a good girl. Mostly because most of my life I think I was a bad girl. I was always really interested in sexuality. You know there are a lot of negative messages for girls around sexuality and whether they are allowed to really fully embrace that part of themselves and I did anyway and I kind of ignored those messages and I always knew that sexuality was the realm in which I wanted to work. So it was like there was a personal journey and there was also an educational journey. I took some Tantra workshops and some other embodiment workshops and then I also got my masters in human sexuality studies and I always knew I wanted to work with people and embodiment around sexuality.

Chip August: So, you’re a classic case of do what you love.

Celeste Herschmen: Exactly. And love what you do.

Chip August: And Danielle?

Danielle Harel: So I wanted to be a sexologist when I was a teenager, but that wasn’t something that good girls do, so I didn’t, but then when I moved to the U.S. I realized that I really wanted to help people be sexual. I did my own sexual revolution and I decided that’s something that everyone will want to do, so I make it my profession. Again, do what you love. I met Celeste at the training for sexology for body work where we realized that we are very aligned in our outlook on sexuality and went to teaching people to get in their bodies around sexuality and really help people have the best sex they can.

Chip August: So, let’s talk about sex a little bit. You use a term on the website. You talk about erotic embodiment. And it seems like that would be a good place to start. So what is erotic embodiment and how does one get it?

Celeste Herschman: Erotic embodiment is the lived feeling. It’s basically feeling your life. So most of the time we walk around like computers kind of in our head processing information and we sort of lose touch with our body, but sex happens in the body. And erotic energy is actually our life force energy and so when you really get back into your body and you connect with your sexuality and you connect with that power that’s available to all of us, it explodes your life. It makes your life exciting and interesting and motivated and fun and energetic and you can walk around that way all the time. And the beautiful thing about erotic embodiment, aside from how good it makes you feel in your body is how attractive it makes you feel to others. When you see somebody who’s in their body in this way, you’re just like, I want some of that, so we teach people how to be in their bodies in that way.

Chip August: So, doesn’t that sort of… well okay, I love that idea, I love the idea of so I’m an erotic being. It’s my life force. I’m deeply in touch with it, and then I sort of have this picture that I’m going around flirting with everybody, sort of being sexually suggestive with people and doesn’t that kind of get in the way of me having like primary relationships and don’t people just start thinking I’m harassing them or something?

Danielle Harel: It’s so beautiful. People are terrified from the possibility that bringing up this erotic energy means that they would have to have sex with everyone and flirt with everyone in the street, but that’s actually not what we mean. We mean like getting in touch with your own desire. It’s yours. It’s not necessarily about anyone else. It’s really about feeling your desire in your body, embracing it and being with it, that’s where the joy is, that’s where the power is and this id you know, it’s safe.

Celeste Herschman: Alright, I just want to add something to that. It’s actually the fear of our sexuality that ends up with people spilling it all over the place. You know when you try to clamp down on something and push it away and contain it and its such a powerful force, it has to come out some way and that’s when it comes out boundary less and overly flirtatious and when it comes out in ways that ruin your relationship instead of creating them. When you really accept that power and you embrace it in your body, then you have mastery over it and you can use it in the ways you want to. You can bring in flirtation if that’s appropriate or you can just bring in that sense of confidence and power if that’s what’s called for in the moment.

Chip August: So, let me see if I understand this. I think what I’m hearing you say is my sexuality really doesn’t have much to do with the other. That its not out there, its in here and that that’s the embodiment that you’re talking about in erotic embodiment That I’m just finding the erotic self that I am, independent of whether its focused on someone else or not, yeah?

Danielle Harel: Yeah, so just think about, who would be a person that you would be attracted to? In attraction there needs to be an I and a U. If people don’t own their desire if people are not connected to who they are, there’s no spark, there’s no energy, so we are very attracted to people who own their desire, so sexuality starts when there is an I in it.

Celeste: And then you can make a conscious decision about who you want to share it with.

Chip August: It feels like it’s a little Pandora’s Box, though. It feels like you know, I think in corporations, in our jobs, we’re really discouraged from actually embodying eroticism and I think it’s, I actually think it’s just totally about if left to our own devices, who would work? We would flirt and we would interact and we would, you know everybody’s all dressed up nice and they smell good and they look good and you know, why would we work, so they make rules to keep us, but then I think somewhere there’s also a kind of, are you suggesting somehow a life where I’m not actually ever having a primary partner?

Celeste Herschman: Not at all, in fact I think what you said about will we work or not, we will work and we will work better. You know because we will be in touch. This energy isn’t just about sex. This is our life force energy. So when we go out to work, we bring all of our energy into that experience. We don’t have to spill out our sexuality there. We have other places that we do that. With our partners, we can decide if we want a single, primary partner. We can decide if we want to be monogamous. We can decide if we want secondary partners. We make a conscious decision based on our connection with our body and our own desires and we consciously negotiate that decision.

Danielle Heral: And again, being in your body is really about celebrating your own sexuality. It’s not necessarily about who you choose to be your partner.

Chip August: This is all great, now um, I want to talk about orgasms and I want to talk about dating. I want to talk about couples and singles, but I want to pause for a moment and get a chance for us to support our sponsors and for our sponsors to support us, so listeners, I want to remind you at this point I have quite a few sponsors who are offering special offers to you, so if you actually go to personallifemedia.com and look for the episode pages for sex, love and intimacy, my show, you’re going to see that you can get fifty percent off on just about everything at Adam and Eve.com. There’s a deal at audible. There’s a deal at ice.com. There are all kinds of savings for you and that’s what gets my show supported and so I get benefit, you get benefit, the sponsors get benefit, and we all win, so please visit the episode pages and take a look at some of the offers and please listen to the upcoming messages. You’re listening to sex, love and intimacy, and we’ll be right back.

Chip August: Welcome back to sex, love and intimacy. I'm your host, Chip August. I'm talking to Celeste and Danielle. They have a website and a bunch of workshops. They are sexologists and we are talking about sex. I kind of want to move into a whole conversation here about orgasm because it fascinates me that when you go looking at workshops and classes, I notice that there are many, many, many people, tantra teachers, cadoshka teachers, sex therapists, sexologists, sexological body workers, there's a lot of people teaching orgasm and part of my brain just drops into, aren't our bodies like built to orgasm? Why do we have to be taught to orgasm? So can we start there? What would be the value of having to learn this thing that our bodies do cause that's what bodies do.

Danielle Heral: So bodies do some of it and its wonderful and great and people kind of get the sense that all that they get that they are missing something, especially when they start focusing on the orgasms and when orgasms can become this like the person of why people have sex, so when we teach people more about their bodies and about orgasm, we help them use the same energy and different kinds of orgasm that they can learn because some orgasms such as g-spot orgasm is different and many women don't reach it until they get older or do something purposefully to develop their g-spot. So some orgasm can be developed and learned and the same time with the orgasms response can also develop or people can get an entryway or doorway to their emotional, their emotions, what they want for themselves, to different kinds of desires and needs and expressions.

Celeste Herschman: I think the short answer to your question is yes. Our bodies are built for orgasm. It is possible to get there. The problem is that our society is built against orgasm and we get so many messages that distance us from our bodies. Both men and women, so you know a lot of women aren't able to orgasm, but a lot of men have very quick ejaculation or they have delayed ejaculation or they can't come at all with a partner. These all come from messages from society that's saying, you're not supposed to feel pleasure. You're not supposed to hold it in your body. You're not supposed to fully enjoy it, so we distance ourselves from that pleasure and sometimes we have to relearn how to really relax and enjoy our body in that way so we help people back to their orgasm, back to the knowledge that their body already has.
Chip August: I would assume that you draw from all these traditions in what you teach.
Celeste Herschman: Yeah I mean I think that’s a wonderful thing about the fact that Danielle and I both have had a lot of different kinds of training and we've had different kinds of training so we've been able to help each other so we draw from sexological body work which teaches erotic trance and expanded full body orgasm. But we also draw from all the sexological research so we have very you know we look at the clinical studies that say this is how you learn how to control your ejaculation or this is why delayed ejaculation happens, and so we both have access to the sort of more academic research based information and then we've taken our tantric workshops and celebrated the body erotic and all those kinds of things so we have more the energetic sense orgasm and both of those pieces of information are essential to help people because you never know where they're blocked.
Chip August: So its my experience that men and women really have really kind of different kinds of experience and I hate to make generalizations because I'm sure there are men who will identify more with what I'm about to say about women and women who will identify more and yet, you know I meet about a thousand people a year and I do see this kind of general pattern. I have never met a man who got to be 21 years old and he didn't know if he'd ever had an orgasm or not, but I've met a lot of women who actually get into their 30s without being sure, so I'm really clear we have a different relationship with our orgasm, but alternately, when I talk to men and women aren't really around and men are really being honest, there's some puzzlement about why like I have an orgasm, I grunt, it feels good, I like it; I role over and go to sleep. My partner has this orgasm, she screams, she's making these noises and it seems like whatever it is that she's calling an orgasm and whatever it is that I'm calling an orgasm, they seem to be different things, so I don't even know what the question is, but can you talk sort of about the difference between men and women and orgasmic response, yeah?

Danielle Harel: So women have amazing capacity to have different kinds of orgasms: from clitoral orgasms to g-spot orgasms, from cervical orgasms to uterine orgasms, from anal to nipple to imaginary orgasms. So women have a huge capacity to have orgasms. Women also are very emotional and that’s something that’s not so, you know acceptable in our culture. We're supposed to be very rational and like having a women in bed like screaming and moaning and groaning and experiencing different kinds of orgasms is an amazing possibility to have a window into women's emotional states and who women are and also for guys to have an opportunity to connect with these parts of themselves they have less permission to be in touch with.

Celeste Herschman: Yeah, I think there are some differences between men and women's orgasms although, you though the research has shown when they have a bunch of people write down a description of their orgasms and they have a bunch of people try to figure out whether its men or women, they can't, you know so there's a lot of crossover in the way people experience orgasm, but I think that what you said is one of the hugest differences. I do see women in my office who say, you know, they may be having the muscle contraction, but they are not having the joy associated with it, and so sometimes its actually like a rebuilding of the joy, of the body movements, of sounding. All of those things have to be brought back in because, they have been you know, taken away. They have been robbed from women. We aren’t supposed to really dive into our sexuality and you know, the honest truth is that muscle response, without really connecting with it and enjoying it, its just not that big of a deal. And so we have to learn how to embrace, celebrate and energetically experience our orgasm.

Chip August: Yeah, I actually think that's one of the reasons that so many relationships have a kind of bed death after a few years is because actually, mostly what they are experiencing is this physical release and the least of what they are experiencing is touching that, that erotic, embodiment place inside us where something is happening, not just to our bodies, but to our thoughts and to our feelings and to our hearts and I get that people don't get very much of that and then it kind of goes away over time because they don't know how to cultivate it and I meet couples that have been together twenty years and they don't have sex anymore because it was big deal. You know, and that's kind of where my sadness is. I want to move off of orgasm. I could talk about orgasm all day, but there's a bunch of other stuff I want to talk about. You guys, some of your workshops talk about extraordinary lovers and I just kind of want to know what you mean, but what makes somebody and extraordinary lover, male, female, what are we talking about?

Celeste Herschman: Well, you know we teach a mans workshop on how to be an extraordinary lover to women and I think you know, men are really like in the dark when it comes to a lot of things that women want. They don't quite understand what women mean when they say intimacy. They don’t understand what women mean when they want, you know, emotional connection, and they don't understand what to do when a woman is freaking out and yelling at screaming, and we really break it down. I think being an extraordinary lover to a woman is more than just about technique, although we do cover a lot about technique in the workshop. It's really about the whole emotional picture and how they can feel powerful and confident and really self assured in the midst of the fact that they've got this emotional person across from them. You know, and they want to have sex with them, and they want to please them and they want to really feel their own pleasure. And so we help them to navigate those waters and really get to a place where they can feel their own personal power and masculinity and still really give women the kind of satisfaction that women are craving in the world.

Danielle Harel: Also as you said, Chip, many couples forget that there is more to sex than just this physical release and we really help men bring it to relationships because we look at men as messengers and too because men are more likely to take a workshop like this than women would be and we look at men as messengers to bring seduction back to the relationship. To start, you know bringing the confidence and bring the play back to relationships, so

Chip August: Okay, that word seduction, I want to jump on that, because actually in my notes here, I have a big one, its like, I think of myself actually as a pretty seductive guy so I like to flirt. I like the sexual energy that you're talking about. I actually think I'm fairly erotically embodied. I could learn more, but I definitely...So I noticed that the word seduction doesn't have a negative overtone for me. For me, it... But I use that word sometimes with other people and what they hear is manipulation is trying to get your way. Seduction has become, I pick you out at a bar and then I use all these tools and techniques to try to get you into bed and you're never anything more than an object of my seduction, so can you say what you mean by seduction because that word has kind of gotten a bad rep.

Celeste Herschman: Yes, blah. That makes me feel yucky in my body, that sort of manipulative way of trying to get into a sexual moment. So that's why everything that we teach is embodied. I mean I guess you could say that we teach embodied seduction. This is something that comes from deep inside. Its not something that you fake. It's not a bunch of lines that you memorize. It's not pretending to stand up with your shoulders straight and you know put women down and say all the right things to try to get them to have sex with you. Nobody feels good in those situations and I think the long term negative ramifications are disembodiment, erectile dysfunction, you know lack of orgasm, not being able to feel your experience, I mean you might be successful quote unquote a couple of times, and get somebody to sleep with you, but you won't learn that what comes from inside of you is really what’s important so when you get into your own body, you get into your own power and you meet somebody as another human being not just as a body that you're trying to get inside of, then you really have a sexual and erotic experience that you will remember for the rest of your life. Not some, you know drunk, crappy experience that comes out of, you know, a one night stand that you manipulated somebody into, so that’s the kind of seduction that we teach and its very, very different. And we teach both men and women to find that place of seduction inside of themselves. You know we didn't really talk so much about our women's workshops but we do start with women and really getting into their own sexuality and their own power in our workshops, but we also have a workshop for women on how to be extraordinary lovers to men and we teach them how to really get into their own seductive energy and power too because seduction can happen from both directions. It might look rather different, but it’s so much fun to feel it in your body in that way.

Chip August: I actually... For me, what I notice is, people focus on negative aspects of seduction. I think we get seduced all the time and I think we actually like it. I think that's part of what's nice about life. I think we get seduced by displays in stores. We get seduced by the line of a car or we get seduced by puppies. Do you know that there's something which touches us and there's no obstacle in the way of letting ourselves be drawn in and it’s a really sweet experience.

Danielle Harel: And it’s also what touches our passion and that’s a communication within my passion, your passion is when we seduce each other. That's flirtation.

Celeste Herschman: Can I just add that I think life is full of seduction. I totally agree, I mean people like to think that make logical, rational decisions about things, but every marketer will tell you that that's not how they make decisions and they will figure out how to seduce you to do that particular thing. I mean, we are seductable and seductive creatures, you know, so we acknowledge that part of ourselves than we have much more power around it.

Chip August: This is great and I want to pause and give our sponsors a chance. We're going to take a break. Listeners, I just want to remind you if you have suggestions for the show, comments about the show, ideas for guests for the show, I love hearing from my listeners, so if you send anything to me at [email protected], I will get it, I will read it. I will act on it and in fact, many of the gusts we've had on the show have been suggested by listeners who heard one show and said why don't you have so and so on and so I really appreciate that support. I also want to say if you hear something that catches your interest or you think, oh, I've got to send that o my husband, or I've got to send that to my girlfriend, please feel free to send the link of the show. The way the show grows is by your willingness to put these interview out for people who might not otherwise find them so feel free to send a link and I also want you to know that every show is transcribed and if there's a particular phrase that you notice you want to put on your computer, oh yeah, I’ve got to remind myself of that everyday, I would go online and look at the transcription, and pull that phrase out, so there you go. We're going to pause, take a break. We'll be right back. You're listening to sex, love and intimacy, we'll be back.

Chip August: Welcome back to sex love and intimacy, I'm your host, Chip August and we're talking to Celeste and Danielle. We've been talking about sex and we've been talking about being a lover and we’ve been talking about all kinds of relationship or sexual and relationship oriented things. I want to stay with this lover thing for a little bit here. I noticed that in somewhere in your website that you started talking about true sexual energy and I had this moment of, is there false sexual energy and what do we, you know, like what is the distinction you're making? So can you speak to that a little bit?

Danielle Harel: So unfortunately many people think that they can fake it. You know pretend that they have sexual energy, that they can pretend to be enthusiastic about their partners, but we're sensitive human beings and you really feel things not only through what people say, but mostly what is the energy level that we feel from their bodies so if people are emitting a real sexual energy, you will feel it.
Celeste Herschman: Yeah, I think eighty to ninety percent of information that we get from another person is really just reading cues from their bodies and you can't fake those cues. I mean, you can do some things that are similar, but at a really instinctual level, you can feel if somebody's bringing their energy, their sexual energy, their presence and you can feel if their not.

Chip August: And what do I tune into to feel that? Where do I listen to me? How do I do that?

Celeste Herschman: Yeah, so that's why you need to become erotically embodied, because when you get into your body in this way, you feel it automatically. If you're walking around in your body instead of your head all the time, if you can feel your chest, if you can feel your stomach, if you can feel your cock and pussy, then you can feel those different parts of your body will tell you is another person there with you? Is their heart open to you? Are they there with you in their own power? Is their sexual energy there? If you’re not in your body, you won't feel anything in theirs. You won't know what's going on.

Danielle Harel: You know coaching will really help people see how we do it and we give them feedback from our body and help them recognize this place in their body where they really connect with different kinds of energy like love energy, desire and all kinds of parts that are located in different parts of our bodies so we teach people how to get into their body and to see how people read them from their bodies.
Chip August: I've always experienced it as a kind of almost like sonar that I have this experience that I am sending out some signal and my experience is if I feel something bounce back then that's that things you're talking about, and it's sometimes you do and sometimes you don't and mostly its not my receiver that doesn't feel the thing bounce back. Mostly it’s that there is either something that’s bouncing back or there isn't and, yeah.

Celeste Herschman: And the other piece that happens is sometimes people's, you know you actually help people get into their receiver that all of their social messaging and their conditioning or their hurt that they've been through in the past makes them stop listening to their receivers, so its like, they’ll be like, oh, I see that look and that means she's ready to be kissed, but maybe she's not and maybe I'm going to fail and maybe I'm going to get rejected and they don’t lean in and then what's happened? She's over there sitting and waiting with that open look on her face and they've missed this amazing opportunity and she feels rejected, so if you're not tuned in and you don't actually follow through with your body when you feel that energy moving, you know you can miss some amazing opportunities.

Chip August: You guys are great. I could talk to you guys all day. Danielle, you said something about in our coaching and this is what we teach, so let’s pause for a moment here and if people wanted to find out more about your coaching, if they wanted to find out more about your classes, your workshops, how could they find you?

Danielle Herschman: They can go to our website, www.celesteanddanielle.com. They can also call me at 415-336-3258; those are the best ways to reach us, yeah.

Chip August: Celeste and Danielle, don't use the and sign. Actually it’s all words. Actually, would you spell it all out?

Danielle Herschman: celesteanddanielle.

Chip August: Terrific. And also, listeners, as always, if you'll go to the episode pages at personallifemedia.com, you'll find links. You'll find a link to their site and many other links that they provide you with, so it will be really easy to find them. I always, two things, one is, I'm having such a good time, I just want to let my listeners know I've invited Celeste and Danielle back to do a second show, so if you're liking listening to this, just know that next week we're going to bring out a second part to this interview, but before we start thinking about next week, I always ask my guests, is there an exercise someone can do at home that will help the sex love and intimacy in their life and we talked about this a little bit and you guys had some ideas, so.

Celeste Herschman: Yeah, so we always start erotic embodiment with breath. Any practice of embodiment, whether it be exercise or weight training or yoga or tantra, all of those things begin with your breath, so we're just going to give you really, really basic sense of the breath work that we do. You can find a download on our website to get more of it, for men. And if you're driving in the car right now, please don't start this breath work session. Wait until you get home. But what I want you to do now is just take a second and close your eyes and just begin to notice your body. And I want you to take a deep breath, in through your mouth and out through your mouth. And you're going to bring the breath first to your chest. So breathing in, just suck the air in a little bit on the in breath, and then on the out breath, just kind of drop it out or release it like a sigh or a moan. And then on the next breath you want to connect in with your stomach, bringing in the sensation and emotion that's held in that part of your body so that you can feel the connection between your chest and your stomach, so breathing in...good and on this next set of breaths, I want you to bring the breath in all the way down to your pelvic floor, letting the muscles in your butt relax, and really breathing down into your cock or your pussy and connecting with your erotic energy in your body. And as you breathe deeply all the way down, feel the connection that comes from the top of your head, all the way down to the base of your body. This is the erotic channel where your energy can flow. This is blocked by difficult emotions. Doing this breath work and really beginning to get in touch with that flow will help you to relax and receive and connect with your own erotic energy. So you can take this breath, breathing all the way down to your pelvic floor, and you can just keep going with it as long as you want.

Chip August: Wow, I feel better. Listeners, I hope that you do too. This brings us to the end of another show. I want to thank you guys for coming and talking to me and as I say, we'll record another show, but I just really want to appreciate you for being here. Thank you.

Danielle Herschman: Thank you. It was a pleasure.

Celeste Harel: Thank you. So much fun.

Chip August: And thank you, listeners, for joining us again. You've been listening to sex, love and intimacy. I'm your host, Chip August and please join us again for the next show.